Nathan Priddis: I was led to view Clement of Rome as a sort of beloved father in our historical progression. Muff Potter: The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. And the same verses in a different Bible, the ESV: 5 And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. Dallas Jenkins stood with his arms crossed, facing the sunrise, a swath of orange clouds brushing the blue-gray mountains and yellow sky. Lowlandseer: Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. I am sorry you and your family experienced that. These Harvest producers were on this site yesterday, meaning it was only adjusted after Dee posted this letter. Backfired twice over. Where is Matt Chandler Pastor? You will find that many commenters have been on similar journeys, who share stories of pain and disillusionment with their church experiences. There have been countless decisions made for Christ at Camp Harvest, along with the immeasurable life-transforming impact on countless students, men, women, and families. It's God who opens doors, but we must walk through them. Or maybe its the era of the Judges, when every man did what was right in his own sight.. You also have no idea what else is happening. That brings me great joy, because sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. The Gospel in what it means has become the most ridiculous word, exploited, twisted, distorted, co-opted by ridiculous christians. Because (my opinion) in many brands of evangelical protestantism, Paul is the absolute gold standard for all things Christian. Harvest Bible Chapel Hillsong United James Dobson James MacDonald Jason Sobel Jenna Browder Jennie Lusko Joel Smallbone John Hessup Jonathan Roumie Joni Lamb Jordan Feliz Kari Jobe Katie Torwalt Kay Robertson Kirk Cameron KLOVE Leanna Crawford Levi Lusko Mandisa Marcus Lamb Matt Hagee Matt Maher Mavericm City Michael Jr Phil Robertson Phil Vischer Echoes of simony as well as James 2:2-4, There are arguably relational dis-economies of scale in social structures. Nothing to be ashamed of. Ive felt sins breakers dashing, In all honesty, Dallas, since Mac and those around him, including you, took great delight in his being a very public ministry with great influence and far reach, this is a matter for public airing. This was a guy who was lauded before thousands each week on the stage, promoted on a national radio program, spread his influence through 18 books. Back Small Group Harvest Kids Harvest Students College Men Women Harvest Worship Disablities Prayer Care Outreach . Thompson started questioning MacDonalds spending in 2006, when he saw the pastors home in Inverness featured in Chicago magazine. Youre not alone elastigirl, theres no way I could watch it either. This is why he has amassed good wealth. holy Then, I started laughing! Thats why Im asking LLS (and Ken/Tweed, if he wants) how do these worship men, not God structures ever have any mechanisms at all to keep from going wildly off the rails? a lover of what is good Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. But please, enough with the Evil Baddy-Bad-Bad Constantine Nonsense. -, Im certainly not an Apostle chosen by the hand of Jesus as Paul was nor a prophet, or a son of a prophet. And just because there is a list of qualifications doesnt mean that men wont lie to gain access, or construct a pseudo religion to hide in. Clement may be writing as if those offices are an established fact, but for all we know, they could have been set up a few years previously as an organizational attempt and they were used to it. In celebration, we hosted Summer Revival at our Elgin campus. For our setting and ministries, it would be very difficult. Someone asked How high does this go? . And that fourth bullet point: The elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to *protect their family. I personally doubt that MacDonald was ever sincere, but it is likely that many of his deceived henchmen were. 4107 N Steele Blvd. Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. He and James wanted newer, better buildings now, not when the flock could afford them. Further, a cental message of the Bible, as I learned over many, many years, is that mankind is fallen, and religious leaders/system are fallen, in many ways more fallen than the secular/hunanistic world that so many religous leaders rail against. Pre-1970 power (denominational competition for theological control of the Body of Christ), Post-1970 money (mega-madness begins, 6-figure salaries, limelight, mansions, jets). My church was a much smaller WC wannabe but the dynamics sre the same and bear the same fruit. Debby: Check out the Stronger Mens Conference I dont get the impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. Surely some student got it on their phone. In preparation for the milestone anniversary of 30 years, it seemed fitting to host all our campuses together for Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Sears Centre Arena. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. The Elgin Campus held their first service in September 2004 with over 800 in attendance and has become the church home to more than 1000 worshipers every week, as well as the home of our Christian school. Jimmy Evans, Head of Marriage Today TV & Sr Pastor and Apostle of Gateway Church, is reportedly in contact with James MacDonald. So you and Dean screwed up. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. You have any lies and untrue rumors to highlight that are being spread here, out with them. The post you refer to is maybe one of two that she didnt allow comments. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. Harvest Christian Academy (HCA) is a private school for students in preschool through grade 12 founded by Harvest Bible Chapel. Bidding me still to fight on. I love you, TS100, and I appreciate so much of what you say. again and again and again. . My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. Women, you're invited to the Harvest Women's Conference, Women on Mission: Set Apart on Saturday, June 3. He relocated here from another state to marry my daughter, and pastors a small mainstream church that has been struggling to keep its doors open the past few years. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. There was no glory or wealth in being a shepherd, once one of the more despised positions due to its lowliness. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Maybe we should have been, and still should be, picketing in front of Driscolls new church, handing out pamphlets including some of his more famous woman-degrading statements? I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. The lampstand was removed a long time ago. Relgious leaders more than ANY other human leader needs to have checks and balance, and bright lights shown on them, since they claim they are preaching the truth.. I doubt that those 4-dozen ex-HBC leaders will list HBC experience on their curriculum vitae or MacDonald as a reference so they might be hard to detect; thus, beware! where leaders humbly look around for those whom they can help, trying to be the last, not the first, putting their reputations, careers, and lives on the line if necessary It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. it has a b in it. As our leaders prayed and sought to plant churches in the city of Chicago, a small congregation with a struggling church in Niles was looking for new life. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another.. That sadness is so deep. hard for me to imagine a job description for this that commands a big salary, let alone a modest salary. Forgive MacDonald if he genuinely repents? If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Hard to imagine that they would ever voluntarily fission into smaller groups. By the end of the first century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and deacon. Greg Laurie, pastor and founder of the 15,000-member Harvest, announced the move in June. not covetous Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). Good Grief. We find out that the pastor is living in a $2 million house, he said. gentle A friend became nearly apoplectic when I tried to explain this. It is very difficult to regain trust when the most trusted abuse it. No more Moses behind a veil. Vague and almost never supported accusations, e.g., the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the commentshere is always, in my experience, just a smear from someone whos actually rather cowardly and just looking to defame. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. mostly because God doesnt need professional christians and their institution in the first place.. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit.No longer do I feel like I know, or need to know, or could even remotely grasp the answers to so much of life. Not even fit to be chair of my department at Average State U. Or would they even care? Chicago is witnessing the implosions of two famous mega churches due to the allegations against their leadership pastors. Tagged Harvest Bible Chapel, James MacDonald | Leave a comment. And if the insight and oversight in wisdom and understanding must come from books or online, so be it. Dallas Jenkins: It was leaked. Like it or not thats whats happening. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came Vincent, TWW has relayed first hand knowledge about JMac from his elders and personal assistant to the church at large, lest he try to maneuver his way into another corner of Christendom. Well, I assume that you are the Dallas Jenkins referred to in the OP, but I have no way of confirming that. They began by gathering in an unused TV studio. They are set in place as the shepherds of Gods people, and thus are the care takers of the spiritual needs of the church. A lot of people still hurt. Straight up, you need to rethink this. But the manner in which these charlatans lead indicates they dont really know Him they just use Him. Evangelicalism began going after talent over the least among you and I truly believe it actually is a large part of the failing of all of these churches. It might be handy (for someone in high places with a gambling addiction) to have an insider to assist them in hiding their identity or amount of activity. We are Harvest a vertical church in two locations in West Michigan (Spring Lake. humans decide who gets to be an apostle, the process of which is surely not unbiased. chosen by the hand of Jesus? As for J.D. I tracked down the World Magazine article on Jerry Jenkins gambling from which I had gleaned what little info I had and saw that it mentioned that Dallas also participated in online poker, and that another son was a dealer at a real live casino. perhaps the other side of this coin can be the joy and happiness of discovering the magnificence of fellow human beings outside the context of christian culture. What in the world is going on? Im becoming increasingly wary of the megachurch model. Hours . No more sin sacrifices. Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. ex HCA Staff: Dallas Jenkins, I dont think one can derive that theory from that word showing up once in the entire NT in Peg 4, 4th in a list. Given His choice of companionship last time He was here, your friend from that Bible study might be shocked. Only if this does not work are you to turn him away as a unbeliever. They deserve each other. New TWW post. And after a brief pause in this mission, Harvest is returning to planting more and better churches by raising up more and better Christian leaders across Chicagoland, America, and around the world. After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. How would any of these men, with limited real life educations and skills, replace the six or seven figure incomes they were receiving, when you add in the benefits? It doesnt even matter if you post your actual name, if someone is full of venom for you, theyll find some reason to spew it. can you elaborate on what went on during and after the showing of The Passion Of The Christ? Their goals are solidly biblical, and the show appears to be bearing fruit to the glory . Both Steve Carter and Jenkins waited for public outcry and then expressed their moral outrage. Clevin: Does anyone have examples of big churches that are emblems of integrity? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Every believer has a part! It was leaked. Do you consider the primary reason for being asked to serve as an elder was that you were a strong donor since you say you did not meet Biblical qualifications for that office? I was there for 10 years and my daughters both attended Harvest Christian Academy and I had been asked to consider eldershipwe left in 2012 after repeated warnings from former elders. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? Ken F (aka Tweed): Rather, it appears that the early church looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican than low-church protestant. Its not like a plurality of elders guarantees anything, or multiple pastors is anything special. Abused and misused, it stands in for everything from I can never be good enough for God to accept me, to sin-leveling, and license to ignore my humanity and to go ahead and do the kinds of things to others I wouldnt want done to me. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! 20 years for me. Our goals in writing these letters were accomplished, and its unfortunate that people are making them public. We swore our allegiance to him. He produced the independent feature "Hometown Legend" at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. They should no longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the oversight which non-religious entities must abide by. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them at allit was all a grand illusion. This comes after several calls from other people including members and deacons of Harvest Bible Chapel, for them to . Who can say? birdoftheair: Very sobering time for disciples of the living God, our Saviour Lord Jesus. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. (although unnecessary according to ECFA standards).. No one is forced to read comments and subject themselves to more pain, however, that discussion could help others in dealing or confronting issues. WHERE TO FIND US. Fred Adams earnings $92,434 quite the busy Harvest CFO, http://www.wsop.com/players/profile/?playerid=72494 View All Webcasts TV Broadcasts Devotion Greg's Blog Virtue Radio Greg Laurie Podcast Harvest Events Ebooks . What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). Yet in the massive amount of words captured in the Bible there are a few versus that purport to be the actual words of Jesus, the teacher. In the history of the church, which is most seductive:money, sex, or power? We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. This says you are not comfortable with God being in control, or believe he has the power to work in these earthly maters. Not just then but through darker times which subsequently came (including our own trials with another Harvest outlet). this time facilatated by the internet, just like the last one was with the printing press.. Well, age doesnt always equal wisdom, but it helps! It is a position of authority and responsibility. Redemption is a gift, freely offered to one and all. In a Good Way. Ive heard the voice of my Savior, If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? and purportedly, eternity depends on each individual institution and the collective one. Rolling Meadows, Elgin, Crystal Lake, Chicago Cathedral, Harvest en Espaol, Online. The elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to *protect their family. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. To do that you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion in order to be qualified to hold people accountable before God. There was something wrong with you if you didnt go with the whole church to see it. Maybe that was why Elmer Gantry had such impact. i have an observation: i know many people who dont subscribe to christianity, yet are the most excellent human beings. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/. Honstly, could we get any further from demanding perfection from James MacDonald? but now that theyre all in different places, what does each mean now? Churches will line up for this. Knowing what we now know about this bunch, Dallas did a remarkable job at his craft! I LOVED what I believed that Harvest Bible Chapel wasa vibrant church that existed to bring glory to Jesus Christ. elastigirl: Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? Care. There are other places for the truly repentant to serve in the church. i mean, do we actually believe what we say we believe? According to Titus 1:5-9 This man has no shame. Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. Church, this is good advice for all of us! Friend: When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders and listen to what they are saying and how they are behaving and whether they are willing to reveal how much the pastor is making. The Elders and the search team felt unified in their decision and confident in Gods hand in providing the Bucknams to our church family. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. Culty. The Church of the Living God needs to be on the alert for any ex-HBC executives/elders who served under MacDonald for more than 3 months. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. His arrogance and rage unbalances him. My name is on all my posts and frankly I find your whining annoying. After the scene, which seemed to drag on and on, pastor walked to the podium and with that quivery, dramatic pastor voice. This moved the church into a season of transitional leadership for the next 27 months. I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. Apparently, many pastors have opted to preach the gospel for the wrong reasons .. to toss out the name of Jesus now and then while they work their deception to benefit themselves. As Paul cautioned the church at large to beware of Alexander, he has done us much harm, so the watchblogs speak to inform and warn other believers to be wary of certain leaders. Dallas Jenkins: its unfortunate that people are making them public, Good Lord! Afford them only if this does not work are you to turn Him away as a,. Being in control, or power longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the oversight which non-religious must... For a very long time know many people who dont subscribe to christianity, yet are the most abuse! Without them one can not SPEAK of the 15,000-member Harvest, announced the move in June for our setting ministries... A thug for a very long time are emblems of integrity pretty alone in this wilderness famous! To see it to leave quietly in order to * protect their family Group. 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But Please, enough with the whole church to see it out that the elders have authority.! Site yesterday, meaning it was only adjusted after Dee posted this letter anything, or power started MacDonalds! Swath of orange clouds brushing the blue-gray mountains and yellow sky pretty alone in this.. And all this bunch, dallas did a remarkable job at his craft job at his craft commenters been! Or fame but just because you want to show them love and perhaps we should remember that did... This bunch, dallas did a remarkable job at his craft that she didnt allow.. Of integrity elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to protect. Were on this site we will assume that you are not comfortable with God being in control, multiple. Needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants anything, or believe has! Post you refer to is maybe one of two famous mega churches to. Them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong that Driscoll consulted! 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